http://dplanet.type01.com/02_asci/index.php?id=000003&content=Interviews&PHPSESSID=eb9ff344c29d34859ddc7416ec4b1f18 --- net_CALLBOY hans_extrem brainhard ETOy.HANS Location > Vienna, Austria Projects > [Ubermorgen] + [[V]ote Auction] + [Nazi~Line] Email > hans@ubermorgen.com ICQ > 38302022 AIM > Not Supplied --- Hans_extrem is an avant-garde net.artist and new media hacker. Hans was one of the brains behind TOYWAR, the most expensive performance in art history, causing $4.5 billion in damage to eToys.com who attempted an aggressive domain take-over. His other ventures include etoy, ubermorgen, etxtreme and ekmrz. We tracked down Hans somewhere in the European underground and established comms via ICQ. dp:: You studied Fine Art at the University of Applied Arts, Vienna. How did this experience influence your vision of the internet? h_e:: etoy brought the internet to the University of Applied Arts. We had our first breath-taking contact in 1993 and immediately knew that this would be the future and this IS OUR MEDIUM. We communicated this to our colleagues and professor... it was all laughter... yeah... what the fuck should this be good for. Only our professor, Peter Weibel was ready to take the risk. He said, "boys, do it... I dont know what this internet is... but I give you 2 years to experiement and work on it, then i wanna see results." 2 1/2 years later we brought him the Golden Nica from Ars Electronica.. at this time all our colleagues were trying hard to find a way to go online and publish there... and etoy was already thinking about travelling back and forth between 'realities'. dp:: Do you feel that artists have come to terms with the possibilities the internet offers as a creative medium? It seems that there is still a huge conceptual divide between those who 'publish' their work online and those who utilise the web as a creative space (online graphic design vs. net.art)? h_e:: Yes and no; there is a gap between 1st generation people such as jodi.org and etoy, the late-adopters, and the upcoming shooters. For me radical business-concepts are replacing artistic-concepts because they have to integrate the different channels, instruments and technologies. Art and design is still focussed on 'the thing' which doesn't exist any more. The next generation (now around 18-20 years old) will really be able to deal with the medium and deliver radical integrated concepts and hard-solutions. The 2nd generation is the lost one in between, they are neither the visionary ultra-innovative killers, nor the experienced kiddies blowing the world away. The gap between conceptual net.art and design is blurred as much as the gap between innovative commercial applications and artistic applications. dp:: At a fundamental level, will the internet's promise of information democracy and individual empowerment ever be realised? The role of the 'artist' has a major role to play in your vision of the future. How long do you think it will be be before businesses wake up to this? h_e:: Different biz = different behaviour. Some corporations already understand concepts such as distributed intelligence, proactive communications and other alternative methods. We deal with various companies and they trust us exactly for my radical experience and understanding in such fluid communication environments. The majority will need at least 2-3 years to adapt and still then it is a big question if they will find capable resources to consult in such mission critical matters. For me, there WAS NEVER and there still IS NO promise of e-nfo_democracy and empowerment of the individual. The etoy.CORPORATION always laughed at such naive wishes and predictions. This is one reason why etoy was mis-useing and transforming 80s concepts such as 'corporate identity' into the so-called field of art, we were instinctively driven to great perversion and pleasure in order to communicate our vision of corporate networks and behaviours. This vision was no sci-fi, no bullshit but both really fucking dangerous and beautiful at the same time, equal to the beauty and the terror of fascism in the last century. For us it was like constantly playing with fire in front of the world, watching our next move and not understanding what and why and where and who. dp:: Can you clarify the 'beauty of fascism' bit?... h_e:: When my ex-etoy.PARTNER and me were 19 years old, we were hanging out in political/intellectual anarchist environments; we tried the swastika stunt [paint a swastika on the wall in your anarcho hang-out pub]. It was clarifying. The fucking polito/left/anarcho people started to hit us with fists and words... full totalitarian lifestyle, not only in terms of swastikas/nazi-stuff but in general... they were all liars! lying to themselves in the first part; and we were young and innocent and had to deal with this grown-up concept of lying to yourself and to your friends. On the other hand i was brought up with pre-war/war literature. I felt guilt and terror from what happend at this time in Europe. At the same time I was always a admirer of the fascist aesthetics and propaganda, they were highly innovative and avantgardistic in terms of the size and the consequences. So what do you do in such a schizoid situation? You learn that there is no left or right, there is no up or down, there is no way back, there is no true/false, no black/white/ no 0/1, binary concepts are shit! - stupid; my conclusion, Nazi/German fascism is beautiful and at the same time the ultimate terror. I learned to deal with that. etoy has many components in its concept that are a result of this conflict/solution situation! dp:: I am suprised to hear that you do NOT believe that individuals are being empowered by the internet. Surely etoy and your other projects are living examples of individual empowerment? h_e:: No way! etoy and any corporation out there is not there because they believe in the power of the individual, even less to empower the individual. etoy was founded by 7 strong heads. They all understood that they were individually strong in some field but not strong enough [genius] to fuck really hard with the world out there. To get such massive coverage as etoy did/does during the last 4 years you need collective intelligence. etoy was a team, the individual was erased by creating agents, etoy.AGENTS, interchangeable agents. Each agent could insert his own power, his ideas and visions but then it was the entity etoy giving directions and overruling the individual needs. It was a cult, it was a hardcore company based on MALES... the survival and success of the corporation was far more important than the individuals exisTenZe. Although the corporation was based on individuals, etoy does not believe in the power of the individual, only individuals believe in the power of individuals. Now transform/map this onto the internet - the network of networks is purely organic [nature!]; individuals are interchangeable parts of the system, similar to machines or groups of people/machines. They created the system in order to organize our collective intelligence, but in the end.. what does the individual count for in a global view.. only for him/herself - it is the center of the world, that's pure individualism... and as explained above you HAVE TO LEARN to deal with such schizophrenic situations. I like it! dp:: I'm just checking out toywar again... what was achieved still blows me away. h_e:: Yes, it was amazing! CNN/Washinton Post... eToys going down and down.. AND most important.. it was all designed and implemented years ago, sort of the media-dispositive to make such unpredictable things happen in this manner, with this power and community driven resistance. The image and identity of etoy was so strong and flexible that etoy can pull such stunts with totally limited management and staffing. dp:: Have you thought about harnessing that power for any pro-active activism (rather than reacting against an evil corporate, for example)? h_e:: Yeah, the concept of etoy was not fighting against evil corporations, because we/etoy were/are a corporation and corporations are beautiful, strong and intelligent [in etoy.TERMS]; we have used this power to pull "the digital hijack" for example, a kidnapping action in 1996 where we infiltrated search-engines and kidnapped over 1.5 million people in approx 4 months. Our proactive communications were based on reverse engineering and media hacking; using 'legal' weak-points in systems and playing with the fast and interactive comm-channels of the net; we have mastered this in a very special manner. Focused not on political goals but rather on pop-star/glamour/underground. dp:: Have you been interviewed a lot? h_e:: Hehehe... yes... we did many many interviews during etoy.TIME.. and in the last 2 years also regarding etoy, but also etxtreme.ru and ubermorgen.com. In the etoy.TIME we gave interviews via video-conference and in real life,.. always with mirror-sunglasses to make it reaaaaal hard, no eye-contact, just hardcore slogan-shooting and spectacular pressure-PR; real fun. In the long run not operable cause journalists will fuck you from the back. dp:: Were you guys like the Sigue Sigue Sputnik of the internet world? h_e:: Somewhat. They always compared us with "Kraftwerk" and with "Laibach", the Slovenian pop-music band with strong fascist aesthetics and very radical art. Maybe this was also influenced by the Euro-pop music we were producing at this time. dp:: Euro-pop? That doesn't sound very radical?... h_e:: Hehehe... but it is... listen to the german pop-music, they created real nice Euro-pop from very strong innovative Techno.. the etoy.CORPORATION was very much in favour of this... and we mixed Techno/Industrial with poppy music and pervert vocals... at this time there was just too much 'pure' Techno on the market - and it was beautiful and it was fun. dp:: South Africa bears the aesthetic and social scars of years of fascism (Apartheid). What role do you think avant-garde/radical art/business can play in such a damaged society? h_e:: I have never been to SA; my experience is based on Western European societies, parts of the closer Eastern countries [Hungary/ Bulgaria/ Serbia/ Macedonia] and East/West-coast USA. I can only speculate. Radical art and new economy concepts are extremely important for such communities/societies to open new visions and ways of thinking. The conflict potential in SA is probably huge and this energy can produce highly innovative stuff. Maybe the conclusion is that 'damaged societies', as you call it, need artistic and scientific innovation to walk into the future more than any other societies... BUT!... usually economically and socially stable systems openly allow way more radical viewpoints, because they are secure and rich enough to have clowns [i.e. artists] to lead them to potentially dangerous fields... and yes... it is a game and you dont wanna take it too seriously... tolerance of your wider community towards different thinking is extremely important in order to formulate and publish your thoughts and concepts with power. If such an environment is not given, radical thinkers will get stuck in in-fights and mostly lose their edge and will to infiltrate the surfaces; fuck it; dont know any "REEEL" answer to this question... dp:: One of your main focii at the moment is 'media hacking'. Can you define this?... h_e:: 'Media Hacking' defined as hacking, touching the legal border but not specifically as illegal activities such as intrusion and theft. Finding and "misusing" "legal" weak-points in large systems, reverse engineering and viral/shock marketing. Today's world requires know-how in the field of generating attention and horizontal communication, specially for artists. They will have to learn to use digital marketing and PR strategies for subversive actions and messages. This will help them market their own artistic and/or scientific projects/projects... ideas and strategies will open up better chances to penetrate the international market of attention. This is also true for corporations.. although they have to be treated differently if you consult them on a professional level. Issue-management leading to proactive comm-strategies and a deep understanding of distributed networks and complex systems is necessary to generate communication.. direct feedback leading to product improvement is a must in order to become a partner in the .net-community... dp:: This sounds like the mantra that so-called CRM specialists are using. Dialogue as opposed to monologue. Where does your thinking differ from theirs?... h_e:: Same words, different meaning? The dialogue concept is from the 80s, I know it by heart from my personal experience with pharma-corporations. First came the corporate identity stuff... then the new 'management-concepts' and then 'DIALOGUE'... but it never worked. It never became a real part of the corporate culture of such global corporations. They learned a lot but they are still stupid shit in terms of what possible tools and strategies they could use. What I am talking about is probably more true for startups and very dynamic companies. Companies without expertise in customer relationship on the net will have to change their whole culture and strategies in order to be fit to survive in da field; some will never make it; others will smoothly change. My thinking differs in terms of understanding that these instruments are really what they are:: instruments; and not some magic new truth or cult. AND that you can use them for ANY message, project, goal... also in the artistic/design/... fieldZ, you just need to understand the basicZ; and there it getZ very interesting for activists, artists, designers, scientist... DROP YOUR RESISTANCE! USE IT! DEVELOP IT! HACK IT! LOVE IT! And then... the next level... use the instruments/technologies as content and gameZ itself... subvert the instruments, show your strategies and tactics, spread viruses and shock people in order to fill these now wide open channel perversions, political messages or whatEVERTHEfuckyouwant... dp:: Some interactive agencies build their online marketing strategies around invasive banner ads, meta-tag search engine listing and 'e-mail pushes' [related article here]. How long before their clients see through the ineptitude of this approach? There is also the added problem that clients buy into this approach because it conforms to their understanding of marketing and they feel safe... they also claim to know their customers and believe that their customers will not understand the radical approach that you are talking about. How do you convince them otherwise?... h_e:: Some clients are learning fast, others will never get it... for a innovative agency/company/individual separating cash-cows from real strong projects is the thing to DO! The weak cash-cow-companies will get exactly what they want and what they understand; the standard-programm as you describe it. Stronger clients will fight with an agency in order to understand that new strategies demand new thinking and therefore for new structures... these are the projects/ companies you can convince to take the risk; no fun-no risk?!=; for a profit-driven marketer who wants to deliver quality to the users of his client the real challenge is to find a mix between "classic" e-advertisments such as banners, email-ads, meta-tags, etc.., ("classic" advertisment such as tv-spots, magazine-ads, promotions, etc..) and online marketing-strategies such as viral instruments, various forms of partnerships and strong customer relation know how/programms/software... otherwise; traditional companies; we just dont work with such clientZ; we reject them/ tell 'em to fuck off... dp::I just received my daily!TOP9! from etxtreme.ru. What are you trying achieve with this service?... h_e:: Our daily!TOP9! is one swell_nize application for the hardcore. High-tech software currently being developed by v10 in Sofia/Bulgaria by a team of very young zuper_JAVA_cracks; your daily e-nfo_breakfast consists of fresh alternative trendZ from the .net/for the .net; itz designed especially for net.opinion leaders - to suck associations and etxtreme.context - take it as it is... and enjoy. The TOP9! words are brought to you with added value URLz so you can start your day on sites you would never see othewise. However etxtreme.ru is just a prototype/platform; our engine is able to deliver way more products. Currently we are rapid product-prototyping... and zoon we will release new platforms and products... watch out for etxtreme-content pop_UPz. Parallel to that we are working tightly with partners to bring your daily e-nfo_breakfast to many sites as content_windowZ. Alzo check our partner_site micromusic for the microtrendz served by etxtreme.ru. dp:: How do you feel the collapse of boo.com will effect 'alternative' start-ups and their investors? h_e:: due to the NASDAQ consolidation and now the collapse of boo.com nervous investors will disturbe operations of alternative startups. we see this already happening and it is positive and negative; for alternative providers it is extremely problematic because they have long term strategies to build their business and image, to develop technology and content... on the other side they will have to touchdown and understand the concept of gravitiy again... which is very important in order to produce products/platforms designed for users... so... in any case such incidents strenghten the biz overall because thinking and acting are accelerated; on the other side some projects will struggle and go down... and the bloody world keeps turning... dp:: Which events/ cultural happenings/ political agendas/ creative or technical developments (either online or in physical space) inspire you at the moment?... h_e:: The political situation in Austria has a very high impact on my thinking and acting... also the influence of subversive actions and radical thinking becomes more and more important, especially if you are dealing with commercial projects... otherwise you will become a dumb-fuck within a very short period of time; wasted... economics and technology are my focus... development in Eastern Europe [European integration]; boo.com and letsbuyit.com, slashdot.org and skim.com, ekmrz.cx and ekmrz.cx and etxtreme.ru; micromusic.net and memepool.com, thehun.com and dplanet.org...; pretty much closed circuit; but through my alternative network there is much direct communications with people/projects, about their tasks, their ideas, their wishes and problems; you get very close to people and ideas that are actually very far... summer-holidayZ in wetware/wired uniform; the last big hype before the next big hype; Linux wins prix ars electronica due to microsoft intervention. dp:: Hans, thanks for all your time and energy!